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hi and welcome to another episode of why , I wish I'd known the Google partners , podcast , I'm your host Alex Lancashire I'm really , stoked to have as our guest tidally , gardener co-founder of Announce , a must-have tool for anyone that is even , thinking about landing page building and , testing Unbounce almost single-Handel , created this field Anatolia travels the , world to speak and evangelize about the , importance and critically of focusing , deeply on the landing page experience , Orly is a self-professed zealot who , seeks to rid the world of marketing , mediocrity and just how zealous is Orly , here are you all asking well here's a , little fun factoid for you yet one point , considered even legally changing his , name to landing page in order to get , that little extra kick of SEO juice from , the many by Alliance and the guest , articles that he's written clearly Kali , is a true believer welcome to the Google , partners podcast all thanks for having , Meir'm Alex and it's great to have you , here Ollie know thanks to start off , by just asking if you could share with , our listeners your back story I mean how , did you come to be where you are how is , Announce founded what what what's it , about , sure thing actually started as a , developer year sago I was horribly , misled at high school then over the , years I kind of progressed through kind , of from back-end coding to front-end , then the web kind of existed I go into , front-end web then usability interaction , design I was creative director for a , while but and then worked at a couple of , startups met some of our six co-founders , in different job sand then IN we , latitudinarians and day one that is , when I became marketer because I'd , never done it before , but before I begin all eight you know I , have a fairly straightforward question , for you but one I think that will mine a , rich vein of dialogue between the two of , us and that is what makes for a great , landing page , great question and the the number one , principle is that you should be using , one it's kind of ridiculous the amount , of marketers who stillborn't but I , think you can think of three simple , qualities of great landing page first , is that it'focused entirely on , whatever campaign you'rerunning so if , you're doing paid advertising in , particular you're sending an ad , somewhere you should't send it to your , website you should send it to a landing , page created specifically for that ad , so the message match is very strong you , know whatever you're promising and your , ad that could be an email as well , anywhere you're promoting something , whatever you have there the promise if , that is not matched on the landing page , there's a disconnect that can make , people to think well this USN't for me , and leave so that tight bond is one of , the important things as Welland then , attention ratio so the amount of , distractions on the page the people that , could take people away so a tension , ratio is the ratio of the number of , things you can do to number things you , should be doing and when you're running , a campaign there's only one goal so you , should have one focused call-to-action , anything else that any navigation that , can take you away from the page pollutes , that attention ratio makes it worse , and can impact conversions at negative , way and then perhaps most importantly of , all is clarity that the way we , communicate our value proposition if , your headline your subhead the main kind , of imagery if this dozen'communicate , really quickly what you do and why , someone should care , then you're gonna lose out to your , competitors when people are doing that , kind of fast comparison shopping and , often people just hold it like one of , the keyboard keys doctoral or command , or whatever click a whole bunch of ads , after a search to open them in tab sand , then just quickly flick through them so , if you don't communicate really quickly , like tie to the you know the message , matches strong lack of distractions and , then very clear value prop then they'll , close that ta band go to the next person , that's kind of how it was impatience , runs thing sand just how impatient are , people do you have any data that tells , us like how quickly they'll leave a bad , landing page and , or any data it demonstrates of those , three points you know alignment , attention ratio and clarity is any one , of them more important than the other if , I had to only prioritize one so there's , the message match thing kind of goes , hand in hand with the landing page , portion of quality score if you're , friends and absolutely so I can have an , impact on how Google ranks your page , rates your page in that with those , factors attention ratio wise we'vie got a , lot of data on that from legion landing , page sin particular so the more links , you have that could take people away , from the page internal navigation like , say you have anchor navigation that , brings you down a long page that's , totally fine because it's not taking you , away but when you look at the amount of , links that can take your weight on a , lead gen landing page we'vie seen a , decline in conversion rate as you add , more and more links and clarity that's a , lot of that comes down to a that that , can you figure it out quickly , someone might leave but also is it going , to help people then stick around and go , ah this is actually sounding pretty good , and you know you'll continue down the , page how impatient are people well , increasingly so there are tons of , information out there that people talk , about to ask we have an attention span , of five seconds and mean I think , Google is now selling six and half , second instruments on and YouTube right , yeah right , spaceport is a massive factor in that , kind of thing in the impact on , conversion bu tin terms of you know how , long someone's gonna stick around that , honestly that depends a lot on their , motivation the thing they'retrying to , achieve like how high motivation is that , thing if they'retrying to apply for , citizenship you're highly motivated if , you're just looking for you know cheap , yellow bananas or something or like yeah , there's a little slightly less , motivation there so that can impact your , level of impatience depending on what , about platform or device I should say I , mean these three things hold true as , well , from amble Ora non mobile experience , and I mean putting quality score and , issues aside with respect to landing , page alignment to you know ad copy is , there a difference between those two , device types that's I don'thieve data on , that specifically but I would imagine so , it's very different I mean you don't , like open bunch of tabs and flip , through them on foe , well thanks Ali for indulge me in a , little bit of that shop Talk there and , let'move on to the premise of the , podcast which is what you wish you'd , known my question to you is simple what , would be the top five strategically , tactical actions that you would tell , your younger Ollie self if he were , setting about to build a business and , company and navigate a product into the , marketplace today yeah that's At's , really interesting to think about this , type of thing and and it's changed over , time we're nine years old now so my , perspective is a little bit different , than it would have been four years ago , if you'tasked but yeah think one of , the the things that I'verbally has kind , of come home really strong to me , recently is that one of the big problems , founders suffer from is the ego of the , size of your company and headcount is a , dangerous metric to be basing your , success on because it's it's a real , vanity metric I mean you get excited , when you're talking with other founders , or just general other people in the in , the space and and you talk about your , company and they say oh how big it you , guys now you know what you are employees , you got and you delight in saying our , we're hundred people were W people , now and that is dangerous mean I mean , I I loved it for a portion of Timex , whenever Ital to my family back at , home'd think they'd ask and I'd say , you have this many people and they'd be , blown away because it's it's a big , achievement but if you rely on that it's , it'seagoing to be dangerous because the , growth period between , W or say W people and up to OR W , this is the most dangerous part of your , company's growth what why initially , because typically you won'thieve the , organizational and managerial structure , in place for that growth period because , you might have a management layer that's , maybe not incredibly experienced because , you were startup you hire people and , you'regrowing but they maybe manage one , person two people as you scale that lack , of experience can come out or it can , just Bethe fact that when you hire so , quickly , you're constantly training people you , have people who should be just doing , their work constantly helping other , people train them answering questions , you're all working on the culture trying , to work together it can slow you down , and at some point you're just gonna see , you're getting less done with more , people which can hurt some of your , business metrics so you like revenue per , employee and it can just it can , frustrate people because they're not , they're not personally getting as much , work done as they were before and this , USN't to say that you can't go through , this and do it properly and and succeed , doing this if you're if you're aware but , a lot of startups especially arena't , aware of these things , when they Begin mean we're great , friends with Rand Fishing was the , founder of Mars newspeak Toronto he , wonders of this you know because they're , in Seattle where Vancouver we'vie been , friends for a long time and he warned us , this exact same thing so we already knew , it might be problem and then we , experienced it you know it's so , interesting mean there's so many ways , I could take this comment I mean you , know fundamentally when people asked , that question the flip side so I'll just , take a second you say eclipsed is , and I do a lot of business coaching and , and I have people introduce themselves , during that and and they'll often say , hey I have boutique agency or I have a , small agency you know and I say you know , the word small or boutique as a modifier , is really immaterial here right I mean , it dozen't matter can you do the work if , you're gonna go to a client yes and then , slice has that modifier adds no value , and in fact Think it tells a little , bit more about yourself so I think it , works the other way too righto mean , there's you know ego is the enemy which , is why you're kind of like gloaming , to that metric of size of being , something good when in fact it's as you , said you did't have,W people would , be unprofitable means nothing right as I , said my CFO is very fond of saying to me , you know revenues for show but profits , are for dough and and it's it'Avery , true you know it's very true but you , know you'vie talked about this evolution , and and it was an interesting thing that , you said there between W and and you , you may have hired people for their , technical skills but now you need people , with management skills are you familiar , with the the Greener curve have you ever , heard of that before haven't ya well , Greener was professor at Harvard , Business School who back in the misdid , an analysis of the growth stages of , companies he looked at a whole bunch of , companies and he started to try to , figure out what you know if there are , any commonalities between those , companies an dhow they grow well I bring , this up and you can google it it's it's , all over the net well I bring this up , because a lot of these things are there , right a lot of these things have already , been thought through and Icon for us , it was really helpful to see that as we , were kind of going through each one of , those stages and my question to you is , how did you make it through those stages , for yourself how did you say okay I'm , reached the stage and and I know that , it's not about size I need to rethink , how doing thongs I'm now going from , W somebody ran told me about this and , yeah I'm here , you know we'vie put a lot of leadership , training in place that externally , focused like some people people are , going off-site to work with some , professional coaches so everybody's kind , of being leveled up from that , perspective which has helped me nuts , taken you know you know maybe six months , be put in place and to see some effect , from and then we'vie we'vie just changed , the organization as well we'vie , simplified a lot we used to have too , many people reporting in to several , people right at the top now we'vie , simplified that so one of our , co-founders Carter he's now the , president and we have three business , units revenue operations , and Wow delivery how did I know it's , progress , Jagger Pried coke product revenue and , operation sand they all report to him so , now it's it's a much simpler by the way , oh that's just me oh don't worry it's , like what I'm trying to describe our , core values to someone and forget one , is that that's great moment some of , the things like that we'vie restructured , and it's made a lot of difference and as , we'relearned you know people have come , and go from the company and yeah and , we'vie hired people who have experience , in organization restructures and they'vie , help edit's it's been many things but , think some of the things that can get , you in trouble or when these things , occur like you mentioned few there a , few more are when you say you're small , you might have one floor in a building , when you mo veto two floors or three , floors that's a big change there because , usually and I should do it in ascertain , way like if you have it silo ed where , development sits on your developer set , of five marketing and CS sits on four or , something like that then there's a big , portion of the company Cuzco don't , work with them day to day you're never , gonna see them and you lose that , personal connection and that can change , the impact of how everybody works , together and the impact on the company , so that's one of the biggest things I , noticed when we we grew so we had to , have more on one floor and that created , some of the harmful impact and it makes , sense because there's a lot of research , about you know the size of a group of , people and how well they're able to , remember and know all of the rest you , know tribal arrival times Think the , number after that you can't remember , everybody or have a decent connection , with everyone well what would be your , next point I think that if I'd known , that now Is pend a lot of time as a , public speaker now my main part of my , job if I'd known that that was gonna be , so important because it's been the , biggest he's had the biggest positive , impact on my personal professional , growth it's I'm , night and day from who Iowas as a person , as a professional as a marketer from you , know four years ago when Is tarted , speaking to now so if I'd known that I , may have embraced it earlier I'm glad I , did't because the way it all has panned , out is that met my wife while I was , speaking at a gig in Vegas and she was , attending so if anything chose that , would't have happened right but knowing , how important it was and if Taiwan't , the circumstance then yeah Would I , would probably tend to think that wish , I'd embraced it more earlier on well , well why did you not Oman what I'm , assuming that you were offered speaking , gig sand you're are you saying that you , turned them down and if you did why was , that and the flip question is okay , wonderful news super happy that you met , your wife but what are some of the other , ancillary benefits that you feel you'vie , gotten from getting up on stage and , speaking in public the main reason I , did'yeah you're correct , I was asked all the time so for the , first five years of our company I was , prolific write rand I tried to make my , writing very entertaining so I got a lot , of requests Togo speak at conferences , and honestly I was very naive back then , I did'TKO what the benefit of , speaking at conference was Iowans't , interested in conferences oh they why , would you want to be a speaker that's , dumb , no clue but the reason I did't do it , was because I'vie been hiding behind the , desk the whole time hiding behind my , screen doing all this writing and the , only interaction you have really is on , Twitter or in the comments of the blog , post and so my biggest fear and this is , just classic impostor syndrome my , biggest fear was that I'd get on stage , and at the end of my talk if there was , QA there'd be a question thrown at me , and that question that one question that , terrified me was how do you know why are , you the person that knows this why am i , paying money why should listen to you , and I I just thought I'd be in that , moment at frees and I'd be like I you , know especially because I work with you , know , working the conversion kind of space so , everything's based on data and not , everything can be righto mean part of , being you know the term thought leader , is that you have original thought you , come up with new things you and you you , know you do are MD you in you invest in , trying to make change and do things that , are new and that's why I always try and , do so there's always going to be a , little bit of an element of you know , both Think this is a good idea , I will validate it as I go often I'll , have lots of results but not always so , that was my biggest fear now I'vie done , about a hundred gigs in the last four , years and I'vie never been asked that , question once it was just a fear that it , was not realized so interesting you , should say that and and by the way I , appreciate your your authenticity about , sharing that with our listeners because , I don'think you're the only person , that has an impostor syndrome or or , feels that they don't really belong it's , like yeah I'm kind of here Odin't know , how that happened but don't tell anybody , I don'tube found out but also you know , getting up on stage and something being , a focus of attention it's not that easy , and and so have you felt that you know , that it's improved your ability to just , deliver a message to clients know the , Announce USN't an agency per SE but you , do a product and you do ha veto , communicate what the value proposition , of that product is and or dealing with , staff and and motivating them and what , what would be some of those spin-offs , yeah I think it's it'serially helped , because obviously as a speaker your , entire job is communicating so it's , definitely helped how I see the value of , clarity and being able to communicate , properly and I try to bring that back to , the work I do which hopefully influences , others and I also do a lot of speaker , coaching internally to try and help , others in the company kind of level up , there because there's a lot of people , that are interested in speaking and you , know sometimes you just need someone to , help you yeah it's , does did you did you have somebody help , you know I did't know where'd you would , you learn , I'm very obsessive and I just drilled , really deep into how to be a public , speaker read that one of the books , that influenced me most was how to , delivery TED talk by Jeremy Donovan , which was fascinating he analyzed lot , of TED talks and the what what is it , that makes them work and then my commute , to work at the time my used to jump on , the bu sand it took exactly W minutes , to get to work , which is the length of a TED talk so I , would watch TED talks on my phone and , headphones on the way to work everyday , so by the time I get to work I'm like , yeah I'gonna change the world inspired , every day yeah and then I just practiced , a lot like I I'vie written a few posts on , medium about it there'sine as if you , adult language in it but if you search , for it's okay to puke when you're a , public speaker okay that's that's kind , of my journey covered in that post but , yeah I just obsessed over it and and , worked really hard I show up early when , I travel so that could Goethe day , before you know go tread the ball it's , kind of setting speak to reorganizes , the AV people so I get on stage just , sweating you it was like so then what , I'practicing , I would visualize myself on stage so I'd , know exactly where I'gonna walk where , I'm gonna move my hands everything'm , gonna do so it's all pare-visualized so , that when I getup there had Little , bit of familiarity , so interesting you should say that you , know year sago I was also making the , decision that want to get better at , speaking and I looked at what actors did , and what professional athletes do and , they do they rehearse they practice and , and part of that is removing the , unknowns so your point about getting up , onstage and walking around is something , that I'redone all the time and I and , you know really recommend that if you , can get into the room we're gonna be , giving presentation if you can get to , the place we're gonna be having a talk , beforehand and by beforehand I know , preferably the night before so that you , remove the unknown of the space the , space dozen't become something , unfamiliar it becomes something that , you're aware of you know how you're , gonna move your body through that space , you see where the light sand the stage , is and and that becomes a lot more , familiar so it enables your head to just , be clearer and to be much more in the , moment and of course we'vie got our , script and we know what we want to say , and we'vie got our talking points we'vie , got our slides to help us along bu tit's , the ability to being flow and had that , command that I think makes for a really , compelling presentation definitely and , the more comfortable you are the more , likely you are and the miriest or , prepared the more likely you are to , ad-lib and that's when the magic happens , when your trust age and you say things , in the moment because you're formulating , new ideas as you go you're reacting to , the crowd or something you said that's , when the originality the beauty that the , constant learning comes from and it's , it'amazing every time I get into that , head space where just start riffing , absolutely love it and it only comes , from being prepare dwell I think that's , the fundamental point if you're loose , and in the moment and able to react to , the audience then they'll have a really , good time and so are you what'sour , next point what got us here won't get us , there now this is great book , yeah Marshall Goldsmith did't know , who this is by that makes it there was a , guy in our office who in some Town Hall , some meeting , he said this and it resonated and now , him for about six months after that , every time there is a a main meeting in , our main space and hole or something , else it was just this recurring theme , people kept saying in all that dialogue , because it made a lot of sense and for , meas a marketer what got us here , we'vie always been content marketing , focused and we'll continue to be but the , channels the methods of things we do in , that are very different in terms of the , impact they have you know we were we , were alongside group of the first , doing content marketing you know a , decade ago so it was easier than two if , you were good at it it was easy to stand , out easier to have a big impact people , showed up at webinars then they don't , really do that anymore you know , info graphics have come and gone sure , they still exist but you know different , channels can die and you need to , understand that that's gonna Beau thing , because if you rely on them and then , they dry up you're like oh what are we , gonna do now and you might figure it out , but you're gonna have a dip there until , you figure it out so the more you can , recognize the fact that any channel or , any new thing you try there's a good , chance it will die and you should , prepare something before it does , I mean webinars were our biggest channel , acquisition channel like W there , it was you know we'd have thousands of , people like 3,W register we'd have W , people show up W then would stay , on for demo at the end of the webinar , that was product demo related to the , topic of the webinar so it just worked , beautifully but then because we're a , generous giving and transparent company , we started writing about it how to do a , great webinar and gave all of our , secrets away we also got some from , friends like KISS metrics and you know so , we learned from others and then we , developed our skills and how to do it , and then we share it with everyone else , so which at that point people start , catching up and then you have to find a , new way to innovate a new different way , of approaching it what's the process , that you use to , think through what's the next thing , mixture of blind panic oh yes I mean the , advice comes from knowing like oh this , dozen't work anymore but when you start , to see that the diminishing returns you , should't stop doing it that that's one , of the mistakes that we made was when it , starts Tonto be quite as effective you , stop it entirely you should't do that , you should keep doing it until you have , something new and how to have that kind , of transition period , okay and just adjust your expectations , and the way you do because yeah people , don'ts hop to webinars because they want , the recording they don't want to show up , because they maybe they can't attend you , know and that'sine of the tactics we , used to use on the landing pages for , registration which Hadar bidding big , impact it's like oh if you can't make it , sign up anyway we'll send you the , recording there was a huge that had a , huge impact on the amount of , registrations we got just for that one , little line next tithe Canad now , that'just the kind of the way it is , because people wanton demand but then , if you have this video for them to watch , and it's gonna be about an hour long , typically most webinars they're not , gonna do it especially when there's no , live engagement so I think we have to , adjust how we present our content so in , that case maybe you still do it but then , when you have the video chop it up into , fifteen pieces and use that everywhere , to try and you know expand your reach as , much as you can don't just limit it to , the format that it came in use it , somewhere else because the fundamentals , don't really change you know the content , can work and sometimes when you do an , audit of your marketing like what's what , has worked well that kind of that thing , worked really well why did't because we , did the landing page sessions which was , video series's minute video's W , minute where I critique landing pages , and whole campaigns then I'd jump into , our into the immense product and show , people how would go about changing the , landing page so it was compelling it was , interesting and the nit , the product which is the fundamental , particle thing yeah but we never did a , second season of that which was kind of , stupid because it was our highest , performing campaign ever because we'vie , done other things but they did'ts how , the product this one did and you know , sometimes you get caught up in maybe , it's because people leave the company , and they were the main champion of , something or people could distract her , to have a new idea that's kind of the , opposite we're what got us here today in , this moment continue to do because some , you know with content people create and , then let it die rather than you know , falling on repeating doing more of it , and videos so crucial now that when you , have success with something like that , you know you really need to keep doing , it and focus on the fundamentals that's , what I'relearned , writing W blog posts about landing , pages I got bored that was when I kind , of went to be a speaker and I stopped , writing wrote a lot more this year but , one of the reasons was I was just bored , of writing the same old stuff so you try , and seek out something new or different , things Oman different different , channel or different way of writing , about something and you forget that the , there is still you know thousands of , people thousands of marketers born every , minute who are gonna come up and have , this same need for landing pages or , whatever your product or service is and , if you don't continue to focus on the , fundamentals for them you're letting , them down and they will get that , foundational content from someone else , because we have the best foundations , content and landing pages but a lot of , it is old so no wit's starting to get at , ranked or just not as high-quality as it , was back then and if you don't realize , that and you don't go back and optimize , that old content and create new , foundations content that's when your , competitors can swoop in and kind of , takeover that critical point where , you're getting the new people to then , grow with you as a brand because that's , what you want you want people to succeed , with you because then , they even if they're not using your , product if they're learning from you and , becoming a better marketer or better , whatever it is they are gonna trust you , and eventually either they'll become , customer or they'll point other people , towards you so you have to be with your , potential customers right from the start , awesome can you share with us what your , next point would be pricing pricing is , very very complication and subject of , many podcasts true bu tit's very sad , what I have to say about this maybe I , can learn something yeah it's about , adjusting your pricing as you grow you , know when you when you star tit's very , natural to undervalue yourself like well , is anyone ever that pay for this so you , tend to price below what you should and , when we started we have you know we're , SAS product monthly recurring and we had , $W plans W and W and W Think the , problems there are a you don'Tet as , much money as you could but more , importantly you're pricing , people who are not your ideal customer , into your product and that's not good , for anyone it's not good for them , because this USN'ta solution for them , most likely and it's not good for you , because you'll have people in our case , we want professional marketers with a , budget we don't want someone who wants , to put a page on the internet because , they're not gonna have an ad spend , they're not going to realize the ROI of , using a landing page they're not gonna , stick around so they're gonna impact our , metrics and lifetime value metrics so , all these kind of things that an , investor would look at or you know down , the road if you're gonna look at an , here or raising money anything you're , doing if you have an ideal customers , coming in you will look less healthy , less attractive to them and your support , costs go way up because you're , constantly helping people who don't know , what they're doing and that'soak , because they should't be there in the , first place it's it'soak they don't , understand that specific you know , marketing strategy or problem but you , spend a lot of time dealing with them , educate yeah and you know I'll say that , this point maps directly into service , based business as well many times when , you'restarting off you're gonna be , competing on price we was talking with , Ben West earlier on about when they , started off and in how they start to , grow the company at intergalactic and an , event base and one of the things that he , pointed out to is though it's always , gonna be somebody that'gonna be able , to beat you on price because in this , business there's always a new kid that's , goat great idea that'gonna start , selling services like let's say just , search ads from their basement and so if , you're competing on price that that can , just wipe out all margins and it's a , race to the bottom pretty quickly , and similarly deciding about support , costs on the on the kind of lower tier , value client sis you know my experience , has been consistently that the clients , that paid the least generally consumed , the most with respect to climb , management costs and where your your , challenges lie and then be interested , here if you found the same thing- in , your business we did yeah I mean we had , this when we started out we'd have this , guy in his S's Waldemar he'd call up , almost daily and he'd spend an over an , hour on the phone because he was in that , situation he had aground kid who , probably told him you need to be on the , Internet so he ended up you know signing , up with us and trying to create a , landing page not for the purposes of a , marketing campaign which is what , therefore I just for the sake of being , on the Internet and he may have been , lonely also he was nice guy bu the , would suck up over an hour of our time , almost every day and if we priced him , out without time II mean if we'd you , know it would have been better for , everyone and so we'vie raised our prices , several times as we'vie gone along every , time our revenue goes up but always tied , to value right so if you're raising , price that yes no it's not just that you , made the the product less functional , it's actually you'vie added value and , increase the price point exactly yeah , you expand your product line up you , expand the features you put thing sin , there that will give people a higher , turn which then enables you to raise the , prices because it makes sense but it's , interesting perception is crazy so you , know we're an established company now we , have a lot of big customers you know , Someone York Times and many I can't , mention because we always seek , permission to use their name and it's I , was at a conference Marketing Profs BB , forum in Boston and I was hanging out , with umber flip , they're from Toronto and Hannah Ibiza , she's now Hopefuls but she ran their , marketing there and we're hanging out , and she knows everybody this guy walks , up and start chatting and she introduces , me and and said this is Ollie from , unbalanced unbalanced yeah you guys are , awesome yeah yeah , a great product and I said oh your , customer is like now it's too cheap none , of my none of my managers would approve , its teachings being enterprise yeah , right , we have enterprise customers but because , it's and we have higher touch support , options for them but typically it's a , self-serve product and we we don't , position ourselves as an end as , enterprise software even though we can , because we're rock-solid our , infrastructures Amazings the best an , industry by far but thank you say so , I'vie heard if when they see that even , though there are enterprise price plans , but you don't see the price in the , website when they see dollars a month , or what's it like that must be a toy , yeah funny how that works so funny how , that works your ex point would be what , this is connected to you know the , content marketing kind of aspect it's to , show your product it's a fundamental , problem of content marketing in that , people don't show their product mean , the main tenets of content marketing is , that you're educating people how to , solve problems and the your product or , service actually you know can help solve , so as the , learn they may become customer that's , the fundamental concept but if you don't , show your product in some way along that , path you're missing big opportunity , and I don'mean you know just putting , banners everywhere or traffic screenshot , so yourself where where it's not , relevant that's not gonna work I mean I , do a lot of experimentation Ina blog , sidebars nobody clicks on the banners , there nobody clicks on your CTA , apartment page the way people interact , with content is changing and assuming , people will click on something because , you're asking them to is naive and one , of the problems in blog designs is that , I have done a lot of experimentation , here if you take your average sass log , so you can look at ours look at , MailChimp HubSpot anyone if you cover up , the entire page when you're running as a , blog post just look at the navigation , there's a very good chance it dozen't , mention what your product is at all not , once , you'd have to drill down into the , navigation to find it or price a , products features pricing blog partners , a lot which is relevant to someone , reading your content so you have to add , some context there now we'vie redesigned , our sand at the top on the blog is a , different header for the blog and it , just says who we are value prop and then , there's a call to action for each of the , three products so in some product , awareness we have three product snot , just one anymore , and you can see what they are and it's , had big impact on the amount of people , interacting with them from that content , so so Ollie that's interrupt because , all our listeners are largely in an , agency space I love what you're saying , here which is you exist to sell a , product make sure that product is , properly featured don't be shy about it , if people are there it's because they , have an interest in it be open and clear , and and don'make them think yeah , think it's entitled a book that being , said what about service business , because your product is pretty , straightforward right there's like , different tiers of it but it's a pretty , straightforward if you're in a service , based business how like this map to that , do you think yeah it's very very similar , so in product you will have different , features of the product different , in different use cases and it's the use , case part that is really interesting so , in your service you probably have many , services you offer this you offer this , y'all for this you can package those up , indifferent ways I'll illustrate it , simply with some product stuff but it , transfers if you take we have sticky , bars as a product if you take that and , then you add some cookie targeting you , can create bar the bottom page that is , a cookie law bar which is you need for , the EU also GDP so people arrive you , know oh we use cookies blah blah blah , that's not necessarily people might , imagine to use a tool for it's just , different use case so similarly with , your services you can take different , parts of different services re brand them , as a new service and offer that because , your customers can't always imagine the , use cases and the different ways that , they can leverage your product or your , services so if you have to do a bit of , the creative thinking there and package , up different thing sit also allows you , to see which things resume most , potentially little bit of this and a , little bit of that is way more , interesting than what you think just , giving this well Ollie that's been , really really great mean that was a , really fun conversation to have and I'd , be really shared a lot wit hour , listeners I wanted to say thank you so , much for that if our listeners wanted to , connect with you to discuss anything , that you might have raised during the , course of the podcast or other things , related to Announce how might they do so , well thanks for having me on Alex yeah , the simplest way fastest wave will be on , Twittery gardener is my handle , that's a quick way but I'm also very , open and approachable so if you want to , email me it's just all a ton Ben's calm , that's very very generous of you so to , our listeners I want to say thank you , again for listening to the podcast if , you want to catch our back catalog you , ca nit's available on sound cloud we have , YouTube channel , of course it's intones google play , music and stitch er and if you like the , podcast encourage you to leave , comments write a view share it with , friends , if you have any questions for me or , comments that you'd like to have me look , into before future guests send me a note , my Twitter hand leis a Lang sure and as , always hope you join us for our next , podcast we'll ask our guests what would , be the top five things that they wish , they'd known , you
